|Date of Transmission||15 April 1994|
|Name of Tape||A/916|
|Source||U.S. State Department|
|Name of Transcriber||Olga Uwera Gatimbiro|
|Date of Transcription||9 March 2002|
R.T.L.M. Tape 0070
- Interview of Shyirambere by an unknown journalist regarding the incompetence of the Batabazi government
- The same Shyirambere explains to Rwandans that the Inyenzi are foreigners. Music by Bikindi.
- Confirmation by Byumba residents of Ugandan assistance to the Inyenzi. And that there are white foreign soldiers fighting alongside the Inyenzi.
- The Inyenzi are accused of killing innocent people at Rebero.
- Interview by an unknown journalist of an Inkotanyi soldier captured by government soldiers.
Speaker: Jean Shyirambere BARAHINYURA, C.D.R. Co-founder
…in Kajeguhakwa without being disturbed by anyone.
Speaker: Gaspard GAHIGI, Editor-in-Chief of R.T.L.M.
- Very well, so the Hutus would start (interruption) without us taking into account…[inaudible]the stands taken by Kayibanda, Bicamumpaka, Gitera and the rest…
- Now throughout the city…defect.
- I remain…we should not be scared or ashamed to say that we are Hutus. That is the message I want to give to people in Rwanda, because presently there is a tendency to label as an extremist anyone who confirms that such and such a person is Hutu or Tutsi. And it is the Tutsis who instilled that into us.
- They are saying everywhere that they are from a royal family and all what not. They have been insulting me for the last few days and have said that the nobles are leaving, you see.
- Now they are becoming nobles!
- Now if we become aware of that situation, more so as I can now dwell on the Arusha negotiations once again.
- If there is anything (that should be done) to put an end to the war that the soldiers are waging, do you follow me?
- My dear friend, given the prevailing situation, we should…we should start again from square one. Firstly: first and foremost, the composition of the Inkotanyi should be analyzed, studied and seriously analyzed.
- We know that they are the Inyenzi, we know that they are the…Tutsis before anything else, that is to say that they may be people of Rwandan origin, but that does not mean they are Rwandans. We know, for example, that people like Kagame are officers in the Ugandan army, as well as all the other officers in the Inyenzi, not so?
- Even at the beginning of the 1990 war, most of them went for courses…[inaudible]military courses in the United States. They went as Ugandan scholarship holders. They were seen as members of the Ugandan army. So how did they become Rwandan citizens afterwards? On what basis can negotiations be carried out with the people? They are the enemies of the country, there is no question of negotiating with them.
- To me, this is crystal clear.
- So they are not Rwandan citizens, they are enemies, that is why the country should alert international public opinion… [inaudible]… international public opinion, we should ask our friends to come to our rescue!
- As for the recently formed government, they are doing nothing at the moment.
- As for us, when we go to talk to the politicians, they reply by saying, “Listen, this government of yours [inaudible]…more so as they claim that the latter has fled, so…”
- Right, when you add the fact that the government is not doing anything, it gets very serious!
- So they should try to do something!
- As for me, what I would recommend is for them to consider the issue very seriously, because, for me, the negotiations of…the Arusha Accords do not exist
- Hum! When…[inaudible].
- Very well, if one should start again, one has to verify, one has to see, should one negotiate or not? Because, for example, regarding the communiqué published by these generals…
- …I wonder what is its raison d’être. They want to resume talks, why? …[inaudible]for what purpose?
- [Gahigi] Euh…in effect, a lot of people thought like you by saying that during the Arusha Talks, the main question they should have considered first was to determine the real identity of R.P.F. and then negotiate afterwards knowing whom one is dealing with, but they refused that. Mr. Barahinyura, to speed up our conversation, you know that when the Inkotanyi resumed hostilities, Rwandan citizens mobilized themselves and outplayed the regionalist trap set up by the R.P.F. The opposition between the Abakiga and the Abanyenduga did not work, because everyone stood up against the Inyenzi by saying, “we will fight you to our last energy.” I would therefore ask you to send a message to these people who mobilized themselves in order to continue, and rightly so, this war against the Inyenzi.
- Euh…these people should know that those of us abroad— I am not alone, there are a lot of other Rwandan citizens— we are doing all in our powers to support you…we also have a front whence we are fighting. However, our battle is not conducted with bullets, rather, it is waged through documents, speeches, phone calls made here and there, as I have done to obtain or supply information, that is our type of war. Here, we are helping each other, and they have to stand firm and help each other. Hutus should support each other, those at Nduga as well as those at Rukiga, since that has always been the case, are you following?
- All Hutus and the whole population should support the Rwandan Armed Forces. The Armed Forces too should support members of the population, and not let them continue to die like they do in Kigali. We should provide them with guns to enable them to fight these enemies of Rwanda!
- How can you ask people to set up roadblocks without that thing, people armed only with machetes, pangas or small clubs expecting to face people armed with Kalashnikovs? You must be kidding! So they should be given weapons to defend themselves and I am sure that there are a lot of people who are ready to…fight, and then you will see that things will move fast and…
- [Barahinyura] …and in a more sys… much more systematic manner and better.
- The more people are organized, the stronger they are!
- That’s true.
- In any case, that’s my opinion.
- For the time being, if you may, I will ask the Rwandan Government to mobilize and do something. Firstly: File a complaint against Museveni to the United Nations as soon as possible. I do not know what they are doing at the moment. They are sleeping, what are they doing? I am referring to one person…a colonel called Bagosora, what is he doing regarding arming the population immediately?
- What are they still waiting for? The person I am refering to now is Bagosora, what is he doing? To the Minister of Defence, I say what are you doing there? To the Minister of Foreign Affairs I will say people are asking us questions, but what do we telI them in reply?
- Let them react by doing something If there is really a government in place and if it can function, let them do everything; let them try to inform the international community about the situation prevailing in Rwanda. Let me tell you…you know it is Museveni who is attacking us, say it, go to the United Nations and file a complaint against them.
- I don’t know what you are waiting for… [inaudible] ; they must make concrete statements regularly and then as soon as possible.
- I cannot understand why they are scared to file a complaint against Belgium whilst that country has blatantly attacked us; that is obvious. The Inyenzi are fighting us in collaboration with the Belgians; earlier on you talked about the media.
- …on radio and television stations. Who did all this? Is it not the Belgians? It is the Belgians who made all those plans in the case of the ammunition found in the houses of Shamukiga, Sebera and company among others, do you understand?
- How were people able to come and set up a village hospital in the city center, especially at the Rwanda Foam factory?
- The question I asked myself was this why were the 800 soldiers dispatched by Belgium, supposedly for humanitarian reasons, armed, why did they bring heavy weaponry? The Germans I met here and who saw those arms said “Well, we are at a loss. We can’t understand how people who are going to evacuate their own countrymen could have such weapons”
- So those weapons are the ones which. [inaudible] came from…[inaudible] and ended up in the Inkotanyi’s hands.
- So, that means we are fighting both the Belgians and the Ugandans. Why did the Rwandan Government not say anything about it? Please note that the problem we have experienced to date is that Habyarimana had kept quiet all that time.
- ….he said nothing and he did not file any complaint as he should have done. You see what that earned him. So, you have to wake up and act if you do not want all Rwandan citizens to be decimated. As for international public opinion, my dear friend, it is only concerned with people who are settled.
- Look at Burundi, since when have these Tutsis been decimating the Hutus?
- [Barahinyura] …To alert international public opinion, journalists wrote at length and largely disseminated information on the events, however, this did not stop aid coming to Burundians up till now! Even after the killing of President Ndadaye, who was elected by the people! And you, what do you expect? It is stated, it would appear, that this is to be assessed by white men! Therefore, I believe that given the prevailing situation, the issue should be considered in all seriousness, as much as possible. It does not make sense to see our soldiers dying whilst others remain here, silent; that is not serious and sorry for using that word.
- We do understand you, there is no problem… [inaudible],
- When I see Rwandans die, when I see the images on television, when I consider that I cannot sleep because I keep on wondering if my younger brother will still be alive at daybreak, if I could call and get in touch with a brother or another friend…this can’t go on any longer, whilst others are sitting down doing nothing and still pretend that they are part of the government; what government are we talking about? Something has to be done!
- Even if they make statements and assist soldiers… [inaudible] courageous; they fight, but I can see that they lack support. All the same, they will have to work. As for me, I …besides I am not the only one saying this, it is the Rwandan community which says so here, to the outside world [inaudible]. At the beginning, they were all intellectuals, so they could therefore write! If they cannot do so, they should ask those who can! So we will therefore use their statements to enable us to do something also. If not, on such issues, we cannot do anything!…[inaudible]. We have said that it was the Belgians who attacked us but this will not be accepted given that…[inaudible] there is no statement or official document on that matter.
- It was Bikindi who declared, “I am talking to those who understand,” in his song that we play regularly at R.T.L.M. I therefore believe that all Rwandan citizens without exception have understood what Shyirambere Barahinyura just told them, “Cooperate with the soldiers, and they will supply you with weapons to enable you to stand up to the Inkotanyi, because, at roadblocks, someone armed with a bludgeon, machete or club cannot stand up to someone with a Kalashnikov. [He also said,] “The government should also mobilize itself and act to identify the enemy, so that they will know…[inaudible]. The government should mobilize itself and make statements so Rwandan citizens living abroad could have a basis to explain to the international community the ins and outs of this war, in a nutshell, its real nature.”
- Mr. Barahinyura, I would therefore like to thank you for the comments you made earlier…
- [Gahigi] …and this is not the first time you have done so since you usually call us to share your ideas. So, you are welcome to R.T.L.M., please call us anytime to share your comments. I thank you very much.
- Okay, I thank you also and stand firm at the frontline.
- Keep it up.
[Music from Bikindi]
Speaker: Gaspard GAHIGI
…Normally, at this hour, people have already gotten in bed or about to do so for those who go to bed late. However, given the difficult period we are going through, it is rather the time to remain alert. I would specifically ask those in the war zones to remain alert. Those living in the city, especially in Gikondo, Kacyiru, Nyamirambo and elsewhere should also be alert since the enemy launches regular attacks against us, I would, by the way, like to reassure the inhabitants of Gikondo, Kacyiru and Nyamirambo who are saying, “we stood up to the enemy but our counterattacks remain inadequate.” They are also saying, “we are highly motivated, we have clubs, spears and bows, but the enemy is armed with Kalashnikovs. Consequently, we would not he able to overcome them; we should be given weapons instead.” Even during the programme which just ended, you have heard that everyone has recognized that to stand up to the enemy, we should at least be as strong as he is.” But in reality, we would like to be stronger than the enemy. I would therefore like to reassure inhabitants of Gikondo, especially those who called us throughout the day, as well as those in Kacyiru and Nyamirambo, following the attacks launched in these neighbourhoods by the Inkotanyi, who, under cover of darkness, kill innocent people who defended themselves by manning roadblocks and also people who ran away to seek refuge in houses. That was how the Inkotanyi launched grenades at women, children and old people who were not on their path for them to claim that these people were fighting against them.
Those are deplorable acts especially because when they started the war, the Inkotanyi stated that they came to avenge the innocent populations. On the contrary, they killed…[inaudible]. So these people said they need soldiers to assist them. I would like to assure the people of Gikondo, Kacyiru and Nyamirambo that the soldiers are on the spot. I am not a soldier, but in a military situation, a soldier cannot tell you his exact position because the enemy would use that to identify the location and eliminate him. Rest assured therefore that the soldiers are there. Be aware also that the enemy has adopted new tricks.
Nowadays, for instance, to kill people manning roadblocks, the Inkotanyi would get to a place and start shouting and whistling, and the people, thinking that they are their companions, would run up to them and then the Inkotanyi would shoot them in rapid succession.
So be wary of people who would come whistling and shouting, since you will be misled into believing that they are the ones manning the roadblock ahead of yours, whilst they are Inkotanyi who want you to show yourself for them to shoot at you So be careful. You should also remember that the soldiers are on the spot. You have to agree with these soldiers on the signs to use to communicate with each other. I will not say more since military defense strategy is a secret that should not be exposed on the radio.
I would like to inform all inhabitants of Gikondo, Kacyiru and Nyamirambo, as well as those in the other parts of the city, that our armed forces are holding their ground at the frontline. You support them and they have confidence in you and all Rwandans have mobilized themselves. We have always said so: when people mobilize themselves as one man, nobody can defeat them even if they have clubs as their sole means of defence. Obviously, the issue of the use of clubs is under consideration so as not to allow the enemy capitalize on this situation to repulse us whilst we have the upper hand.
Before giving the microphone back to Noel, I would like to remind listeners that we…[inaudible]. We had promised to give you reliable information from our radio station. As our ancestors said, “truth can go through a household fire without getting burnt;” we will continue to tell you the truth about this war, so that everybody…[he coughs] will understand that the truth is present, and will make their choice and understand that [inaudible].
As regards news from the frontline yesterday, at Ruhengeri, if we may, start with this region, buses and armoured vehicles with the insignia “NRA” were seen at Maya, a neighbourhood situated between Nkumba and Kidaho. NRA is an English acronym signifying the Ugandan army. So what business do these buses and armored vehicles with the “NRA” insignia have in our country? This is concrete proof that Uganda is involved in the Inkotanyi war, given that NRA which is participating in the war is the national army of that country. This is concrete proof, and when people say we could file a complaint against Uganda, that it is not for lack of evidence, hence these buses and armoured vehicles which were seen yesterday at Maya constitute real evidence.
Then the court of appeals … there were 260 non-combatants who had fled from the Inkotanyi in areas where fighting took place in the main hall of the Ruhengeri Court of Appeals. Then an Inkotanyi accomplice came and launched a grenade at them, killing all 260 persons. This act illustrates the cruelty of the Inkotanyi. However, they claim that they launch attacks to protect innocent persons and to ensure the reign of democracy. Yesterday, a plane landed at the Byumba frontline, at Mukarange, specifically at the Cyumba communal office, and remained…
End of Side A
From 0 to 15.9 mins, Tape Blank
Speaker: Gaspard GAHIGI, Journalist for R.T.L.M.
…who might have seen Ugandan registration plates, which will be yet another proof that Uganda and its armed forces are very well involved in the war we are waging against R.P.F.-Inkotanyi, What would a puma helicopter be used for normally? A puma helicopter is normally used to transport approximately 30 persons, military personnel or civilians. That means that it could be used to transport troops to the frontline, or the wounded, as well as weapons and ammunition. Given that this type of helicopter is spacious, it may be used to transport R.P.F.-Inkotanyi troops or people wounded at the frontline.There is another thing that we observed on the frontline which you may perhaps note for the future concerning what we are going to explain later and that, by the way, as we have always said, is that during the fighting which took place at Jali Primary School, six white people were seen at the frontline. Afterwards, our armed forces killed two of them and their bodies are there, lifeless. Journalists went to see the bodies today but when they got there, they saw that the fighting was still going on, but in any case, we hope that the Rwandan armed forces would show viewers the bodies of the white people they killed. This is concrete evidence of the presence of white fighters alongside the Inkotanyi. Who are they? I would rather not disclose their identity; we shall see what happens in due course.
The white people were killed during an attack launched by the Inkotanyi at 2 a.m. At 4 am, they launched another attack but the Inzirabwoba [the fearless] repulsed them, and once again they saw two white people during that attack. This is proof that white people fight alongside the R.P.F.-Inkotanyi. Who are these white people? We will identify them in due course.Another thing is that, normally, a starving soldier cannot fight. We also learnt that the ration of those soldiers fighting in the north comes from Uganda, via Miyove and Kinihira before arriving at Mugambazi. This is something that must be known, namely that the route used to bring food supplies to the Inkotanyi fighting in the north is the following: the food supplies come from Uganda, pass through Miyove and Kinihira before getting to Mugambazi and even Rutongo.As for the events which took place at Kigali, I believe we have talked about it enough. We have said that in the morning…I have told you that I, personally, went to Gikondo, at a place called “cinquième rue” and I saw the ‘Inkotanyi kill a lot of people there. Since we were not able to count the bodies, I cannot give you any figures. I was not able to count the number of bodies but I saw many, and I believe that there were at least 25 bodies. I cannot give you an exact figure, but there were at least 25 bodies. Surprisingly, they were women, children and old people who had fled from the Inkotanyi at the foot of Mont Rebero l’Horizon. Afterwards, when some benefactors saw that it was not good for these old people, women and children to be exposed to the cold, they forced open the door of a former bar situated in the area known as “feu rouge” and sheltered them there from the rains and night cold. But the Inkotanyi, who have the reputation of being “ruthless”…what can I say…heartless, because it is incredible to throw grenades at women, children and old people sheltered in a house to protect themselves from the cold. Sometimes, I wonder if such people believe in God…[inaudible] …I insist on that because it is unfortunate. So the Inkotanyi came to Gikondo, in the bar situated in the area called “feu rouge” and they threw a grenade in the house, killing all those who were inside. They shot and killed others who were on night patrol, but the latter also shot and killed an Inkotanyi whose body was seen near place du marché. Dear R.T.L.M. listeners, this is what I wanted to share with you.
Apart from news from the frontline, we have learnt that Patrick Mazimpaka, 1st Vice-President of R.P.F.- Inkotanyi, was in Uganda yesterday where he had a meeting with the Tanzanian Ambassador based in Uganda. He told the Ambassador that the Inkotanyi were now ready to form a government after taking over power here in Kigali, but that they wanted to include parties represented in the current government. Let me say that this is quite extraordinary in politics. After signing the Arusha Peace Accords which stipulate that “no one should resort to force, or the use of weapons to take over power,” you cannot come and declare, after taking over power by force, your intention to include in your government parties which are signatory to the said accords which specifically state that none of the parties should resort to violence. I believe that these parties will not accept to be part of that government. Patrick Mazimpaka is simply engaged in propaganda in Kampala. He wants people to believe that, if they take over power, they will share it with the other parties, in order to show that they are democrats I would like to tell our listeners that if R.P.F. takes over power, I will challenge any political party to participate in that government. If that happens, I will congratulate that party, wherever I may be I know that it is impossible. If they are in the pay of a dictator, let them know that he will never agree to share power.21.7 minutes
If R.P.F.-Inkotanyi wants to take over power by force through the use of guns and bullets, and you, as a democrat, as a party, you think you will share power with his government, you might, perhaps, have to wait forever. Let me now ask Kamanzi, our technician, to play some music, meanwhile, I will ask you to remain vigilant; especially our armed forces and the population supporting them. As for the rest, I know that all over the world up to now no one has contradicted that historical principle – when the armed forces of a country cooperate with the population, it wins the war at all costs, even if it is the army of a small or poor country. Let me also add that, even though I am not a soldier, today modern wars are waged jointly by soldiers and the population. We maintain that no one can attack a country from outside, its armed forces and population, and take over power; all the more so as he cannot exercise that power without the support of the population. Therefore, whosoever thinks that he can take over power without the support of the population, without using the democratic path and ballot box, and not through Kalashnikovs, to that person, I say he will have to use his own means to achieve this.
[Music of Bikindi]
Did I kill them? …[inaudible].
Speaker: Unidentified II
Yes. on what basis do you choose from the population those to be taken away and those to be killed? How do you select those to be killed and those to be taken away?
- We ask them questions.
- What do you ask them?
- Hum! First of all, we ask them for their cards.
- The party membership card?
- The parties or…
- The identity card or the party membership card?
- So who is killed? Who is spared?
- There is for example…those with C.D.R. membership cards.
- All of them… [inaudible].
- Well, sometimes some of them speak well, and those ones are not killed.
- What do you mean, by speak well?
- Some of them, when arrested, say that they cannot betray the thing…
- Ha! Ha!
- The Party? [Reference made to R.P.F.] Their party
- …[inaudible] ?
- [inaudible] ?
- … [inaudible] but when someone speaks well by saying that he too does not understand what divides them, that they are all Rwandans, victims of an injustice, he is spared.
- So now, why did you choose Gikondo?
- As for me, I do not even know Gikondo. In fact, we arrived like that but I was taken away without knowing where I was going.
- When you go to the countryside, how many are you generally?
- We form a platoon when we go to the countryside.
- A platoon is made up of how many persons?
- 30, but not all the platoons are the same.
- What makes them different?
- Some of them have many people whilst others have few.
- What are your plans now after Rebero?
- Fighting where?
- They are going to launch attacks.
- Where are they going to attack?
- The camps?
- Which ones? Which camps are targeted? Which camps are they going to attack next?
- As for us, the ordinary soldiers, we are not informed! For example, we had attacked the location before Rebero, but we were fired at and we withdrew.
- How many were killed?
- We were not the ones who went there.
- What about the military camps? Is there also a camp at Rebero? Did you not participate in the attack against the presidential guard?
- Yes, I was there.
- Hum! How many died among your ranks?
- They are many.
- You mean how many? Give us a figure.
- You see, you have for example, those who have been seriously wounded and have been evacuated and who die afterwards. So you understand why I can’t know the number.
- Why are you fighting? What is your objective in fighting?
- It is said that it is to defend Rwanda.
- Those that you kill are they not Rwandans?
- I don’t know either, this is beyond me.
- So you are fighting without knowing why, do you think that is…[inaudible].
- Hum! Me? A soldier is under the orders of his superiors.
- According to what you have been told, what will happen when you win the war? What will be your reward?
- We have not been told anything so far. What we do know is that if the accords are successful, the demobilized soldiers will receive a demobilization allowance. As for the reward for victory, I do not know about that.
- What would you say to the other Inkotanyi who are at Rebero, at C.N.D. and the others who are dispersed all over? What message do you have for them, to continue fighting till victory or stop?
- I would advise them to get on with each other because they are all Rwandan citizens. By the way, if you look closely, they are fighting against each other but nothing divides them really. Since that is the way things are, they have to reconcile and stop causing trouble in Rwanda.
- Okay, you have confirmed that you have five companies, at Rebero. Are all of them under the command of a Major? Is it true that each company is under the command of an officer….[inaudible].
- I have told you that there is a company under the cormmand of a major and another under a captain.
- What about the other companies?
- They are under the command of the same non-commissioned officers.
- In what direction are your mortars pointed? At the moment, what is the target of your mortars? [inaudible]
- You see, when we are upon from a specific position, we fire back.
- You do not have a specific target, a specific area or building, or whatever? What targets do you currently want to hit with your mortars?
- Lately, I have seen that the hill in front of Rebero has been bombed.
- Ha! Ha!
- Is that area occupied by our soldiers?
- Let me ask you know how you were captured?
- I was captured when the others left me at a position to protect it from attack.
- So that it should not be attacked by surprise.
- So they went and left me alone.
- Me neither, I never knew why they did that.
- Did they say that they would leave?
- Hum! They returned there.
- At Rebero.
- Are you sure they are there now, could you confirm that?
- I cannot confirm that given that they abandoned me; I cannot know the path they took; in addition, I do not know Rwanda well enough to be able, perhaps, to find the mute and get there alone.
- How long have you been in Rwanda?
- Me? Since I was enlisted in the army.
- Were you enlisted in the army at C.N.D.?
- When I got to the C.N.D., I was told that you were …at Mutara; then you came to C.N.D. So when they came the first time, the very first time they arrived in Rwanda, at C.N.D., where were you?
- When you were at C.N.D., was that the time you had the habit of leaving to visit the city?
- So why do you say that you do not know the city?
- The city? In fact, as far as I am concerned, I used to go to Mulindi as well as to places where there were white people.
- Where is that?
- Where there is a lot of trees.
- It is at Kiyovu?
- Is it Kiyovu? That was where I arrived, at the Tanzanian embassy.
- Now what do you intend to do next…what do your superiors say you will do after Rebero?
- After Rebero? The plan was to launch an attack; from there, in fact, they are only waiting for the arrival of those who stayed behind.
- By the way, why did you kill the Head of State?
- Me, I don’t know.
- According to what is being said, who killed him? Why was he killed?
- I was told that it is our superiors who made plans and who killed him, but I only heard that on the radio, and I know nothing about the rest. But I have heard that he was killed at the airport.
- As for them, who do they plan to kill next?
- Now, if you were, say at the head of a company, would you confide such information in me, an ordinary soldier within your company?
- But, normally, are people not pointed out to you so that you kill them when you see them?
- You are taken aside and, told, “we are going on a specific mission.” Then you go on the mission and then you are told, “the mission should be undertaken at such and such a place.” So you therefore leave without knowing what you are going to do. When you arrive at the place, you may be attacked; in that case, you counterattack and the battle starts.
- You have also said that you were among those who came to C.N.D., that you went often to Mulindi and that you went to Kiyovu, to the Tanzanian embassy. When you arrived at Mulindi, how did you get back?
- Before I got back, Unamir first of all had to count the soldiers on board and inspect what we brought from Mulindi; after which we boarded the vehicles and proceeded.
- Why did Unamir count you whilst you knew very well you had to return by the same way you came.
- They were scared we might board others.
- Did you have any intention of doing that?
- Did you have any intention of boarding additional soldiers? The plan to add some.
- How many did you add then?
- Hum! We took away some of them and when we arrived at your roadblock, we made them go back; that is the case I know.
- The firearms you use, are they all yours or are they given to you by other people? - They are all ours. And yours…in fact, they are lower ranked soldiers.
- Isn’t there any country or countries which support you?
- None. I have heard Radio Rwanda mention Uganda especially. But, even for Uganda, I am not sure it is supporting us in any way.
- Don’t you have firearms you use which belong to white people? Before that could you tell us your name?
- Where are you from?
- Which part of Zaïre?
- Are you of Zairian nationality?
- Ha! I am a refugee. I went to seek refuge in Zaire.
- At the beginning, what was your region of origin when you left?
- It is rather Gisenyi.
- I heard that it was in Mukingo commune but I had not arrived there yet.
- How old are you now?
- 20 years.
- What is your level of education?
- I did six years at primary school. In the first year of secondary school, I came immediately.
- Hum! Over there in Goma.
- Where specifically in Goma?
- But what other school are you referring to that is found in Goma, next to this place…[inaudible].
- I was studying at Saint-Esprit.
- There is Mwanga and the Adventists schools…
- [inaudible] it is Mwanga, it is Maendeleyo, it is the Instigo of…
- Over there at Saint-Esprit
- It is not at Faradja?
- Tell me, your fighters who are present in the country… [inaudible] ?
- Our fighters?
- Did other fighters join the 600 soldiers who came to C.N.D.?
- You mean those who are in Kigali? Under normal circumstances, I cannot know the number of people because it increases constantly.
- Where did they go through?
- They came directly.
- Could you tell us the routes they took since you think they came directly?
- I know one person among those who came. They went through the Kami military camp.
- How many were they approximately?
- Five companies.
- Are they all deployed in the city or are some of them in other [inaudible] ?
- They are deployed in the city.
- In the city alone? Apart from Kigali, where else do you intend to go?
- Apart from the city of Kigali, to which other prefectures do you intend to go?
- I do not know if the battalion that remained behind attacked the other prefectures.
- When did these battalions intend to return?
- I have heard that they could not find a way through.
- Where did they miss the way?
- What? When the battalions come, they clash with the Rwandan Armed Forces stationed at their positions. The Rwandan Armed Forces cut off the road.
- But you did say that they come directly!
- Those ones were captured, but they did come!
- Here in the city, apart from Rebero, where else are you?
- Over there at the stadium.
- Which stadium?
- How many are you approximately?
- I know only those who were with me. As for those who bad left, I really cannot tell how many they were.
- By the way, do you know the Belgians of Unamir? Did you see them?
- I did see them, we lived together.
- Where did you live together?
- Over there, at C.N.D. When we went out, they were the ones who went in front.
- But currently in this war, when you attack, are they not present?
- Hum! I do not really know them.
- Don’t you have equipment that belongs to them?
- Did you say their equipment?
- Even if they had…
- …you will understand that this will be known only to the higher authorities, so I would not know.
- Okay, today… do you know Nyamirambo? Do you know Nyamirambo?
- The area you referred to when you said “march up to Nyamirambo.”
- When I arrived at Rebero, I was shown Nyamirambo just like one could show this Camp Kigali, which is opposite us.
- Do you know where that place is now? Did you see that area from Rebero or did you go there?
- So, according to them, what were they doing at Camp Kigali?
- What did they say about Camp Kigali?
- They said that the units at Camp Kigali fired at them relentlessly to the extent that those in the trenches could not raise their heads.
- When we shoot…when the units at Camp Kigali throw bombs, do such bombs reach you or do they fly above your positions?
- Those positions have indeed been hit; in fact not long ago, some of our young soldiers were wounded.
- Were any of them killed?
- You said that they were wounded.
- They died.
- …I am still talking about the bombs thrown from Camp Kigali, were there any victims among the people? How many died as a result?
- In fact, as far as I am concerned, when we arrived, at Rebero, we immediately went to the road where I told you our company was stationed. However, when we went further down the road, two people from our platoon were wounded— they were not dead— by those bombs which fell at Rebero.
- And you, did you not shoot to retaliate?
- Ha! Ha! They have not yet retaliated.
- When do you intend to fire at them?
- What? If they fire at us intensely, or if the battalion which remained behind got near. There is a battalion which came from Mutara and which occasionally engages in fighting behind the Gatsata area.
- The Gatsata area? Is it this battalion which will come…[inaudible].
- There at Camp Kigali.
- That is the battalion which will come to Camp Kigali? Which route will it take?
- So you believe therefore that it is that battalion based at Gatsata which will attack Camp Kigali? Is it only one battalion? One battalion? Are you sure it is only one battalion?
- That is what you are saying, but where did you obtain that information? It is…I do hear our soldiers say so.
End of Tape