Information
Date of Transmission6 January 1994
Name of TapeRTLM
SourceU.S. State Department
Prosecution ExhibitP103/45
Name of TranslatorGaudence Mukakigeli
Date of Translation9 June 1997
Original PDF

R.T.L.M. Tape 0045

Synopsis

The tape contains Kantano’s account of his visit with the R.P.F. at the C.N.D. He lists a series of R.P.F. dignitaries alternately poking fun at them and accusing them of wanting to obtain power. It also contains an interview with Deputy Rutaremara of the R.P.F. Kantano casts the interview as an example of the Inkotanyi way of thinking.

Side A

0.1 minutes

Speaker: Kantano HABIMANA, Journalist for R.T.L.M.

… the Inkotanyi said, “That Kantano hates the Inkotanyi so much; he hates the Tutsi. We really want him. We must get that Kantano of R.T.L.M. We must argue with him and make him change his mind. He has to become a partisan of the Inkotanyi ideology.” All the Inkotanyi wanted to see that Hutu who “hates the Tutsi.” I do not hate the Tutsi! I do not think it is their real opinion. It is not. Why should I hate the Tutsi? Why should I hate the Inkotanyi ? The only object of misunderstanding was that the Inkotanyi shelled us. They chased us out of our property and compelled us to live at a loss on wastelands like Nyacyonga. That was the only reason for the misunderstanding. There is no reason for hating them anymore. They have now understood that dialogue is capital. They have given up their wickedness and handed in their weapons.

1.1 minutes

Then, after the Inkotanyi, those youngsters in fact, what I noticed is that most of the Inkotanyi youngsters don’t know Kigali city. When they look at the stadium from over the hills, they start asking among themselves, “What is that thing over there?” “That must be the stadium.” Of course, such a stadium cannot be found in Tanzania or in Zaïre. They do not know this town. However, each small team is guided by some children from Gikondo, some from Nyamirambo, some from Kacyiru – well… those who know the city. This is also a sort of strategy.

So, I held a long discussion on various issues with those youngsters. After having provided them with full information on some issues they had ignored so far, I disillusioned them about a few lies they may have been told. Of course, it is not easy to have them give up their ideas. Imagine a child who has been taught the ideology of the Inkotanyi since his childhood at 13. It is very hard to… [Inaudible] …at 18, especially when he was never given the opportunity to go anywhere else or to meet anybody else.

Then I met Dr. Tito Rutaremara. I spent much time with Dr. Rutaremara in Kinihira… yes, with Rata. That doctor who holds a degree in territory fittings… he is like our Ranine! That man has now been appointed Deputy for the R.P.F. He was an R.P.F. coordinator before. In fact, he was in charge of the coordination of political and military operations. That tall Tutsi, from those species commonly called “prototypes,” that man from Murambi is one of those haughty men who would say, “Shehe yewe sha!” [Hey, small sheikh] And there ended our conversation. Between the both of us, we knew what we were talking about because… [Laugh] It is said that he is the son of a certain Gatete from Murambi. Gatete, the ex-Bourgmester from Murambi might have been given that name as a hint at Rutaremera’s father.

Then, he asked me to share a glass of beer with him. I briefed him on the situation here on our side. Then we went to his hotel. Their hotel was full of Inkotanyi [males] and Inkotanyi kazi [females]. Most of the population was from Nyamirambo, from Bwiko, women and men, children; in one word, the whole world. There was a big going and coming crowd of drinking people. Most of the people were drinking milk… [inaudible] Some drank milk because they had nostalgia for it. It is surprising to see someone drinking two or three liters of Nyabisindu or Rubilizi dairy and so forth. There should have been a shortage of milk in dairies. Someone wrote to me, “Please, help! They are taking all the milk out of the dairy!” I saw this myself. They hold a very big stock of milk.

So, I sat with Tito Rutaremara. He came along with R.P.F. Deputies. A certain major Rose Kabuye [her maiden name is Rose Kanyange & her husband’s name is Kabuye]. That Tutsi woman with a gap between her front teeth asked me, “Kantano, why did you tell lies? You said that I killed a lot of people in Kabuye? Those were lies… So much the worse, they were all soldiers anyway.” I told her that even soldiers have the right to life. They have not been created to die, but to ensure security. Neither Inkotanyi soldiers nor Rwandan soldiers have been created to die. They have been created to live. Apart from Major Rose Kabuye, there was also Deputy Antoine Nkabuwakabili. Antoine Somayire was also next to me. Hodari was also present. Lizinde had his hat on. He promptly came to me. When he saw that I…

5.5 minutes

…was bearing my General Habyarimana’s effigy, he asked me, “Kantano, what kind of thing are you bearing over there?” Then I met Deputy Sheik Abdulkharim Harelimana. I met him outside, not in the bar. Then he told me, “You told lies; you said so and so… that I am not an alien, that I caused misunderstanding between Sheiks. That is not true. When I asked him to comment on the words during his previous address to the Muslims of Nyamirambo, his answer was, “I never told Muslims of Nyamirambo to give up politics. I just advised them to unite in order to get enough power so that political parties can find powerful candidates among them. Therefore, I was elected as one of the powerful persons.” When you consider the way the Inkotanyi appointed Deputies, they based them on regions. According to zones. You can find that one Deputy is sent by the refugees or theInkotanyi from Tanzania, another Deputy from Uganda and another one from Zaïre.

So, this Sheik Harelimana was appointed in order to gather all the Muslims for them. I do not know whether he will succeed in turning them all into Inkotanyi. He was appointed for this reason, though. He said, “The members of the P.D.I. have come near the Inkotanyi so that some people could be chosen from them.” Then, he proudly told me that they had four Muslim Majors, and this had never been the case before. You understand that the R.P.F. likes Muslims a lot. I told Muslims of Nyamirambo to unite within the P.D.I. and make up a force to back up the R.P.F. (This is what I add, not what he actually said). This is what Sheik Abdulkharim Harelimana, son of Makongoro, told me.

About Deputy Pierre Ndorimana. A slim black man, he is Esq., he was wondering what should be done. They still have a problem. They also need to be sworn in. They rely much on the P.L. to back them up. You can really feel that they want also to gain power. They want it. They want to integrate the administration and get a salary. They want to sensitize people about their ideas. They have strong intentions to bring in changes. This is their sole concern.

In fact, throughout their discussions, they say “Our only concern is to become Deputies, nothing else.” What else? Meanwhile, in a few minutes, I will broadcast an interview I had with Deputy Tito Rutaremara. He is considered, in fact, the chairman of Deputies. Many other issues were discussed – you will be able to listen to the interview yourself. He thought that his ideas could not be transmitted on R.T.L.M. I want to prove the contrary. And individual’s ideas or an Inkotanyi’s ideas can be transmitted on R.T.L.M. Yes. They are also wrong. Their ideas would at least be known by other people. If we do not know their ideas, we will not know them either. So, I let you listen to the discussion I had with Tito Rutaremara on current issues. You will hear him saying, “Um, Habyarimana has been… [inaudible] ” Those kinds of things you find in newspapers.

Then, I met Minister Pasteur Bizimungu. He said, “Thank you R.T.L.M., for having presented me your condolences. Thank you, R.T.L.M. Besides, it must be you, Kantano, who expresses them.” That is true. Though you are an Inkotanyi, a parent is a parent, and a human being is a human being. You cannot but present your condolences to someone in case of misfortune.

10.2 minutes

Oh! I also met Minister Seth Sendashonga. He told me, “You were right. I really renounced all my money.” In fact, he and his wife used to get over fr.1 million of wages [per month]. He left the million to become an Inkotanyi minister. He is proud of this. He is a tall man. He walks very elegantly. He is very proud.

In the meantime Dr. Pasteur Bizimungu was discussing with Ngango, Esquire, who asked me, “Whenever I discussed with an Inkotanyi, you broadcast it on R.T.L.M., but what does it mean?” I told him, “Mr. Redondo, we just broadcast nothing but the truth we see.” “Then, why do you feel that the matter concerns you?” He asked. I told him I did not feel concerned at all. Then I told him, “Take care.” “Discussing with an Inkotanyi is not a bad thing,” he declared. Then, his conversation with Pasteur Bizimungu went on.

However, Pasteur Bizimungu was not at ease whenever he is without Patrick Mazimpaka. If it were possible, one would be appointed Director of Cabinet for the other. They have like each other for a very long time, even at the time of the Arusha agreements. All the time you hear Bizimungu was saying, “Where is Patrick, where is Patrick?” All the time! All the time! Even right in the middle of his conversation with Ngango or when he was taking his non-alcoholic tin of drink, he would always be looking for Mazimpaka. One would think they were fiancée.

… then, who else did I meet? I had many discussions with many people. [Inaudible] There were also what they called “Ibyitso” [accomplices]. There were also accomplices. Those who had been put in jail at the time of accomplices said, “please bear in mind that we’ve been imprisoned because of our support for you, remember my daughter who needs a post in Ministransco “Ministry of Transport and Communications,” or anywhere else, my children need education.” They do not discuss anything else. That is what I think. They are only looking for employment. They said they lost their jobs when they were in prison. They want jobs and ministries like Mijeuma “Ministry of Youth.” Others are families who had come to visit other families. I asked Rutaremara, “Wire your visitors Tutsi only?” That means that Hutu also visit other Hutu. But the fact is that Tutsi visit other Tutsi. So, I told him, “be careful, or else, at the end, you get R.P.F. power yourselves.” [To have an extremist wing]. Those were jokes. Finally Tito Rutaremara escorted me to the exit.

Meanwhile, I attended the Inkotanyi show and parade. They asked me to record their songs. I did so. Their parade was fortunately all young people, for old people would have a hard time with it. “Pa pa pa pa pa pa I hum!” Just to impress you. They just want to show off with their exaggeration. Then, they saw me off. Antenna clock, I took a ride with an accomplice, or rather an Inkotanyi who would come to visit them. We conversed. He affirmed that I could become a good Inkotanyi. I said I would look into it. Then we went to Chez Lando, where a party was ending. The party was organized by Deputy Kabageni. Deputies on the Lando wing had been feasting. They danced because the swearing-in ceremony had not taken place. This is really an absurd situation. Some people are crying while others are singing and vice versa. Their political bureau is characterized by jealousy, lies and trickery. I can understand them. They are fighting.

14.2 minutes

They want their Tutsi congeners to come and support them. On the other hand, the Hutu want their congeners the Hutu to support them. If they want to get to unity, I think both parties will have to share. This could, at least, lead some people to understand that unity is crucial with any political party.

That would be against regulation. But, at the end, there will be a compromise… then, they had drunk, enjoyed and danced. “They were not sworn in by the oath, nor were we, praise the Lord!” they said. Meanwhile, we will try to get the Inkotanyi to assist us and support us. Such is the present political situation here.

Now, I would like you to follow Dr. Tito Rutaremara, an Inkotanyi and son of Gatete from Murambi near Kiziguro in Byumba Prefecture. The people of Murambi commune are unlucky. They have got two big Inkotanyi : Dr. Rutaremara and Kanyarengwe. Murambi commune is really unfortunate. Let them hold on! At present, listen to the answers I have been given by Dr. Tito Rutaremara, Deputy of the RPS. When you hear his opinions on some issues, you will find out that he is playing games. Someone who is already discussed things with a Tutsi will, however, understand what he is inferring.

… you refused to be sworn in following problems within P.L. People think that the R.P.F. interferes with P.L. matters.

Speaker: Dr. Tito RUTAREMARA, Deputy of the R.P.F.

RPS does not interfere with P.L. matters. But at a certain moment, people fought for vacant posts. Some of them joined a side which they found interesting. Leaders like Habyarimana told them to go to him and cooperate with him. Since they were seeking for their own interests, they went on his side, but others stayed.

It is not only the R.P.F. When came the time of sharing… it is similar with other political parties. They started fighting for posts. They were like dogs fighting in slaughtery excrements… That is what happened also with P.L. The reason that nobody wishes well to Mugenzi is that Habyarimana wanted to get the “blockade minority,” and I think he promised something to Mugenzi. We do not know. We were not there. But you always say it on your radio station. I think it is because of two months that you call them “intoryi” [witchcraft]. I think that is how you call them… I have never seen them but if you consider how Habyarimana was against Mugenzi’s appointment as a minister, if you consider how Mugenzi was insulting him, calling him a dictator, that… [inaudible]. But the following day, he had already fallen silent. Moreover, he was believed to have financial problems. So, he was probably given something. Anyway, what we know is that they are very close to each other. Habyarimana needs his blockade minority and Mugenzi might have consented to let him get it.

18.0 minutes

Speaker: Kantano HABIMANA

Is this the reason that you punish him by repelling his candidates from the Deputyship?

Speaker: Dr. Tito RUTAREMARA

The only reason is that he did not follow the rules when he pointed his Deputies. They did not follow appeals rules. They did not follow the country’s regulations either. That is why even the notary said that what he did was unacceptable. The chairman of the Constitutional Court said that this was against the rules… [inaudible]. This is one of the reasons, a reason relating to the respect of the rules. The second reason is a political one. They wanted to help other and Habyarimana get the blockade minority, and this was not provided by the agreement.

Speaker: Kantano HABIMANA

But you also want the blockade minority. Why can’t others try to get it?

Speaker: Dr. Tito RUTAREMARA

We do not want it. If you find out that we are looking for, just tell us. We will give you an explanation. We have never looked for it. If you can find me an example, I will provide an explanation on the issue. He may be mistaken or somebody may have induced you into mistakes.

Speaker: Kantano HABIMANA

Is it because you are not yet in the framework of the Assembly?

Speaker: Dr. Tito RUTAREMARA

We will use our ideas in the Assembly. If someone finds out that we’ve got good ideas and follows us, we will progress together. If we find out that others have good ideas, we will cooperate. We will not even say, “This one is this or that side. But if you think we did something to get that blockade minority, you can tell us. You’ll get a proper explanation. Because I know that you always talk about this blockade minority on your radio station. You had better tell it now and get a proper explanation. If you are mistaken, I will provide you with a proper explanation.

Speaker: Kantano HABIMANA

Tell me, Rutaremara, now that we’ve got time to discuss quietly, why do you dislike M.R.N.D.?

19.9 minutes

Speaker: Dr. Tito RUTAREMARA

I do not like M.R.N.D. for the following reason: first it was a single political party. A unique party can never go hand-in-hand with democracy. Second, it was a dictatorial regime. A dictatorial regime kills human beings and spoils everything. Third, M.R.N.D. killed people. M.R.N.D. killed people all around. They were victims of their being Tutsi or from Nduga [South], which is a very big mistake. The fourth reason is that M.R.N.D. spoiled this country. That party instituted a bad policy. It did not establish a good political or economic line or any other infrastructure in order to develop the country. So, I do not like M.R.N.D. because of all the above mentioned reasons. However, if it changes and accept a multiparty system, if it respects the liberty of each citizen, if it consents to cooperate with others in planning the economic development of our country, I will not have any objection to it. Apart from what it did, if the situation is rectified, we are brothers.

Speaker: Kantano HABIMANA

Don’t you realize that M.R.N.D. has been rectified?

Speaker: Dr. Tito RUTAREMARA

They have not mended their ways yet. But this is normal. They are used even alone, especially because they are so greedy. It will not be easy to cure them immediately. You have to proceed little by little. They are used to -- look! Those former M.R.N.D. leaders had the entire Rwandan economy in their hands. They had all the power for themselves. I can imagine how difficult it is to share a small part with others. I understand that. However, they have to bear… [inaudible]. It is a very bad sickness. To cure the sickness needs daily medication.

Speaker: Kantano HABIMANA

He said that M.R.N.D. killed people. Who killed more people than the Inkotanyi ?

Speaker: Dr. Tito RUTAREMARA

It is the M.R.N.D.

Speaker: Kantano HABIMANA

How so?

Speaker: Dr. Tito RUTAREMARA

Let’s start by your congeners. You know that people like Kayibanda were killed by Habyarimana one [inaudible], then Mayuya, the Bagogwe [Tutsi from Gisenyi], Tutsi from Bugesera and from Murambi, from Kibilira, the Hima from Mutara and many others whose names I will not mention here. Besides, you know them yourself. Without bothering me, you know that. You can say it better than I.

22.5 minutes

Speaker: Kantano HABIMANA

This is radio R.T.L.M. broadcasting from Kigali. The friendly radio. So you heard the Inkotanyi Rutaremara; they kept Deputy of Inkotanyi, Tito Rutaremara. He was trying to answer my questions. He was, of course, answering in the Inkotanyi way. I hope that he now understands that even the Inkotanyi can speak on our radio. We do not want anybody to be silenced. Even the Inkotanyi can speak on our radio. Rwandan music, though it is Inkotanyi music, can be played when he has a good rhythm and sends an important message.

So, those who think that our radio stations that people at odds with others will be amazed. You’ll find out that you were wrong. At the end, it will prove to be the mediator of people. It is that kind of radio that does not keep any rancor. Even their journalists do not have any ill feelings. So, the truth is said in jokes. It is not a radio to create tension as it is believed to.

Those who believe that R.T.L.M. “heats up heads” are those who have lost theirs. They cannot keep telling lies. Let me read your announcements:

[Music)

End of Side A.