Information
Date of Transmission17 May 1994
Tape NameRTLM/5
SourceU.S. State Department
Prosecution ExhibitP103/8
Name of TranslatorLydie Mpambara
Date of Translation 23 December 1997
Original PDF

R.T.L.M. Tape 0008

Side A

Speaker: Valérie BEMERIKI, Journalist for R.T.L.M.

…the Inkotanyi, they plotted to kill the President of the Republic, His Excellency Major General Juvénal Habyarimana. They did so. They killed him on the 6 April 1994 on his way back from a summit in Dar es Salaam where he had gone to represent our country. Moreover, they killed the President of the Republic of Burundi, His Excellency Ntaryamira Cyprien and their delegations when they shot down the aircraft transporting them. So, all those people died in that aircraft. Then Twagiramungu Faustin Rukokoma and the Inyenzi-Inkotanyi thought that they would immediately seize the country. Very soon on 7th, at 4:00, the Inyenzi-Inkotanyi left the C.N.D. building where we had been housing them and went to attack the Presidential Guards’ camp. They attacked it and fired at it. It is understandable that the others defended themselves. [Inaudible]

…He goes out on a trip and when he comes back in the evening, he finds killers waiting for him at the gate. They kill him while he has got eight young men in his house. What will those young men do? They will hasten to come to defend their father. That is obvious. Nobody should dwell on this because it is obvious that wherever the eight children will be, they will all hurry and rise up and say: “This is impossible. They killed our father. Why did they kill him while he had reached the gate? Who killed him? We have seen him. It is so-and-so.” So, everybody should think of this: what will be the children’s reaction? We know those behind those killings well.

It is Twagiramungu and the Inyenzi-Inkotanyi who shot down that aircraft and killed our father. This shows that this father had children who loved him. So, those children rose up and said: “It is impossible. Those who killed our father are so-and-so.”

And this has always been talked of. The numerous plots to kill him have often been talked of. In fact, the R.T.L.M. radio station broadcast it. And because it tells the truth which upsets them and hurts them, they said that it should stop its broadcasts. So, that truth was revealed. The R.T.L.M. radio station said it and it happened. Why do they want to close it? That it is what Rukokoma is trying to do but he will never succeed. So, you understand that if that father was killed while he had children, while we were present as his children, we had to defend him. And we had spent many years together, yet not enough to lose him. We said it that we still needed him because the sorrow he leaves us with will last forever. So, we must understand this and we Rwandans, must behave as his worthy heirs.

When killing him, Twagiramungu Rukokoma and the Inyenzi-Inkotanyi hoped to seize power. Then, the Inyenzi went out from where they were being accommodated at the C.N.D. building and launched an attack. Why do they not condemn that attack too? Why does the R.P.F. not condemn it? Rather, it shouts on radio stations… We will never accept that. Those people who brought disorder, those people who left their barracks and launched attacks should be the first to be condemned by the international community even. We had provided accommodation to those Inyenzi-Inkotanyi and they were guarded. However, those who killed the Head of State have been arrested. They are known! They know who they are. They said what happened. So, what kind of lies are those Rukokoma telling on radio? Those are just misleading tricks for the population so they do not find out the truth. So, they failed to seize power. Because of that failure, Rukokoma goes and speaks on radios, ironically laughing at the Rwandans, reviving their sorrow. In any case, we do not ignore the fact that on Muhabura radio, he declared that in reality he was no longer a member of the M.D.R., that he was a member of the R.P.F. from now onwards. This does not surprise us.

However, he should know that so far, the Presidential Guard cannot be disbanded. He should not delude himself. The same thing applies to his bosses the Inyenzi-Inkotanyi who require the disbanding of that unit as a condition for negotiations to take place. The Presidential Guards unit must not be disbanded. Nor will the government be dissolved because it was set up in accordance with the law, with the Constitution of our country, and with the wishes of the political parties that had set up the former government. It is those parties that had the right to dissolve the former government and set up a new one according to their wishes. And that is what happened.

It is not for Rukokoma or the Inyenzi-Inkotanyi to express their wishes through those parties.

So, that is what those parties did and that is how that government was set up. And so it is how his Excellency the President of the Republic succeeded the late Juvénal Habyarimana too, in accordance with the law.

Because if they use those Arusha agreements which they have been clinging onto as a pretext, calling them Peace agreements, for our part, we consider them as War agreements. We found out that those agreements were preparing for war. So, those agreements are no longer valid. Such is the opinion of all the Rwandans who are in the country. So, theInyenzi-Inkotanyi should not always talk of those Arusha agreements. Those agreements are no longer valid.

I explained this to you, saying that it was like that League of Nations which was founded at the end of World War I in order to prevent another World War from breaking out. But it failed and the World War II occurred. Then, that organization was dissolved and replaced by another organization which we currently know, the United Nations Organization. It replaced the League of Nations.

That means that those Arusha agreements, instead of preparing for peace, for the prevention of future fighting, prepared another war, other fighting. That means that those Peace agreements are no longer valid. Those Arusha Peace agreements that we have always been referring to as Arusha agreements because we realized that they were not “Peace” agreements when considering the acts of the Inyenzi-Inkotanyi. That means that those Arusha agreements are no longer valid in this country. Because they were dissolved by those attacks launched by the Inkotanyi.

If they accuse us of carrying out killings, if they see that we have done something wrong, why do they correct it by means of another wrongdoing and take their weapons and kill us? Why did they not say? “We see that those people acted wrongly. Let us go and accuse them.” There are several channels through which they should have filed a formal accusation against us. Why did they not accuse us but rather preferred to correct a wrongdoing by other wrongdoings? If we really acted wrongly, they should have not corrected us by acting wrongly too. Here, it is just a pretext because they can see that they are in the wrong. So, they say: “Since we are in the wrong, we have no way out. Let us say that those people were acting wrongly and that we intended to correct their bad deeds.” However, there is not one wrongdoing.

All the people who were killed in the country are the victims of the R.P.F. It is the Inyenzi-Inkotanyi who killed them and nobody else. That is why the Presidential Guard should not be disbanded. It did nothing wrong. That is why the government should not be dissolved. It was legally set up and did not carry out any killings. It was rather set up to reestablish the security that the R.P.F. had troubled. Neither should the President of the Republic be dismissed because he was nominated according to the Constitution of our country. lt is our country’s Constitution, not the R.P.F.’s. So, I do not understand why the Inyenzi-Inkotanyi want to interfere in our domestic affairs.

Another thing is that so far, the R.T.L.M. radio station has told the whole truth. And what it said happened. It has been proving what it said. So let me tell you, the R.T.L.M. radio station, now in a makeshift shelter, will continue to broadcast from this makeshift shelter, it will continue to speak for the majority of Rwandans, it will continue to broadcast its ideas. It will never be discouraged. It will never stop its transmissions.

So, everything is denied the Inyenzi-Inkotanyi and Rukokoma. They should become calm and accept to live with us. And then, we will see together what should be done if they are really Rwandans who want to build this country. We will come back later to this point because for this, negotiations are required. We will see if those negotiations are really necessary and what we can expect from them, after other negotiations that took place. Before continuing with this issue, I would propose a brief break when they play some music and then, I will come back to this later.

[Music]

Speaker: Emmanuel MBILIZI, Journalist for R.T.L.M. (?)

Radio-Télévision Libre des Mille Collines, it is sixteen minutes to ten in our makeshift studio where we are henceforth forced to broadcast from. Good morning dear listeners, good morning to the Rwandan Armed Forces, good morning to the whole Rwandan population and special greetings to those residents of Kigali and of other areas of the country who conduct night patrols every day. Dear listeners, good morning. We are happy to be with you again. Good morning to you, Mr. Jean Pierre from Cyangugu, and these greetings are sent to you by Nkomati Emmanuel. Dear listeners, what we have for you now is this: Faustin Twagiramungu, talking on Radio France International this morning …We heard a Faustin Twagiramungu respecter of the blood pact concluded with the Rwandan Patriotic Front. Rukokoma, after having escaped from the popular punishment, listening to him, you have the feeling that he has not decided to change his angle of attack. As though by telepathy, the infamous nominated Prime Minister repeated word for word the point of view of his bosses from the Rwandan Patriotic Front: the dissolution of the Presidential Guard, of the government, of R.T.L.M., etc. One should wonder if he has once again lost his head or his mouth even. After the death of Gapyisi, Rwambuka, Gatabazi, Bucyana, Katumba and others …And now, the President of the Republic His Excellency Major General Juvénal Habyarimana whose murder he organized. Rukokoma still has the cheek to laugh at the Rwandan people. In fact, nothing unpopular will ever have currency in the Land of a Thousand Hills. Neither the Presidential Guard, nor the government, nor the R.T.L.M. will be dissolved. Faustin should stop making fun of the Rwandan people. Furthermore, the masses are waiting for the return of Faustin Twagiramungu to take care of him.

You are listening to Radio-Télévision Libre des Mille Collines. It is twelve minutes to ten in the R.T.L.M. makeshift studio. Dear listeners, we are here to serve you. We do not abandon you during the war, we keep on fighting by your side. Once again we salute the courage of our Rwandan Armed Forces.

What can be said about the progress on the field operations is that the Rebero hill was completely freed and no presence of the Inyenziis reported on Rebero. Again, congratulations to the Rwandan Armed Forces. That means that the bigger part of Kigali town retrieved its calm. The areas left are in the outskirt that must be seriously cleaned up by the Rwandan Armed Forces with the help of the population.

Dear listeners, let me tell you also that life is slowly but surely returning to normal in Kigali. At the market, you can now buy some foodstuff and some activities are being restarted in town. For example, some chemists have opened, some clinics have opened, some markets are opened, and so are some shops. Some shop owners are still reluctant. Somewhere, we can see a tire repairer busy working. And elsewhere, people go for a walk, of course with vigilance to track the enemy whose only aim is to infiltrate everywhere and to create panic here and there. So far, the population of Kigali has proven to be very, very vigilant and is giving a helping hand to the Rwandan Armed Forces.

And from the observers’ opinion, the defeat of the R.P.F. is almost certain. And if the Rwandan Patriotic Front does not change its strategy, if it does not attack from another angle, it is heading straight for a bitter failure.

So, you are tuned into the Radio-Télévision Libre des Mille Collines. We will again be with you after some minutes to keep you informed of the progress in the situation. However, you should know that only the popular will be respected in the land of a Thousand Hills. And everything related to the popular will. Since a winning team cannot be removed, the Presidential Guard can never be dissolved, nor R.T.L.M. The same thing applies to the government which is very popular, which has the support of all the Rwandan people.

[Music]

In 1994, the lie tried again to get the upper hand. However, it is being repressed in the utmost violent manner. Because the methods prior to ‘59 did not take in account the 1994 realities, they created a false circuit of which the macabre result was principally the neutralization of all the accomplices and the enemies of peace. A politician who does not know his people is like a navigator without a compass. To crown it all, the feudal-monarchists think that everything is possible. [Inaudible]

The Rwandan people are so fed up now that they cannot stand that movement that conveys death and desolation. If the R.P.F. persists in its doings, the whole Rwanda will pounce on it.

So, there will be one alternative. Either the R.P.F. will win and rule a graveyard or the people, after dismantling the R.P.F., will rule.

On the contrary, if the R.P.F. claims to be Rwandan and Patriotic, it must do what the people want it to do, namely and in reality: to lay down their weapons unconditionally and to get involved in the logic of elections, which are the true expression of the people and not hold on to strange agreements that look like a coup d’etat plot …nothing will be done again by our politicians if the people do not benefit from it. No more Arusha in Rwanda. It is a matter of nationalism. Those agreements killed the President of the Republic. [Inaudible)

[Music]

Speaker: Valérie BEMERIKI

…that document I prepared which shows the attitude of the white Belgian people in our country. In that document, you will see how starting from yesterday the Belgian scoundrels who were part of Unamir packed their belongings and started to head for their country. However, they do not know where they are going because they are wandering. As they are leaving they are hanging their heads and do not know which way to take.

Since the beginning of the war imposed on us by the Inyenzi-Inkotanyi in October 1990, in the eyes of the Rwandans, the Belgians have been like some deformed rusted up spears. They did not hesitate to show their support for the Inyenzi-Inkotanyi, which brought us all this misfortune. Instead of those white Belgians listening to the truth of the majority of Rwandans who are in the country, they spent twenty years blinded by the Inyenzi-Inkotanyiand believed all their nonsense, including the monarchy and its remnants that we buried since the 1959 Hutu Revolution. They aim at digging those rotten things up while it is impossible as long as the descendants of Hutus will remain united. And undoubtedly, they will never go back on that.

However, there are still some Belgians with common sense who are famous in our country. For the others, they have lost their common sense. Those are Jean Paul Harroy and [inaudible] who undertook to fight that bad politics of Belgians, asking them to fight those bloodthirsty Inyenzi-Inkotanyiwho are exterminating the Rwandans, lying that they are fighting for democracy while it is a killing and oppressive regime they want to reestablish.

Those white Belgians would not listen to that wise advice. It has been a waste of time. Using the Arusha agreements as a pretext, the Belgian hares put pressure on … [The rest of side A is blank.]

End of Side A.

Side B

[The beginning of side B is blank]

…The lnyenzi Inkotanyi …while all of us affirm that those agreements are scrap paper which we Hutus should not be interested in. To carry out their plan, the Belgian hares sent their scoundrels, their so-called soldiers to be part of Unamir, the U.N. troops sent to Rwanda. Its objective was to work in favour of the Inyenzi-Inkotanyi. I mean that those scoundrels had the objective of working for the benefit of the Inyenzi-Inkotanyi and all their supporters. To crown that, those scoundrels were given the duty of ensuring security in Kigali town. Then, they allowed those Inyenzi-Inkotanyiand their followers to occupy the whole Kigali, simultaneously planning to overthrow the Hutu power, along with that betrayal of those white Belgian people, of those so-called soldiers, was their indecent and vulgar behavior that made all the Rwandan people sick.

Hiding behind Unamir, those scoundrels provoked countless road accidents in this town, thinking that they had conquered this country.

They have also been intimidating the population, pointing guns at them.

Those scoundrels, so-called Belgian soldiers committed many atrocities which deserve punishment. For example, they were seen fighting for women, trying to pick a quarrel with any passerby. And they committed those unspeakable acts in popular places like Exotica, Chick Norris, Café Rio, Malaika, Cosmos, Kigali Night and elsewhere.

They are completely unscrupulous. Think of that. Those people have been invading the young girls’ school Lycée Notre-Dame de Citeaux of Kigali, which all of us know very well, with the intention of raping those young girls! Those young girls were always scared.

They committed every possible evil act. Particularly characterized by racial discrimination, they did not want to get close to the Bangladeshi soldiers, saying that they were dirty and stinking black people.

So, our gendarmes always had to do police work to prevent those criminals from going too far. Those are not the only atrocities committed by those scoundrels.

Their acts often revealed whom they sided with. On 5 January 1994, when the establishment of the extended transitional institutions was scheduled, they transported in Unamir vehicles groups of P.L. Lando’s wing members whose objective was to disperse the residents who were demonstrating in the streets to show their discontentment. They took nobody else on board.

And you remember the atrocities that took place in Remera, Gishushu, from 24 to 26 January 1994. Because of their incompetence and betrayal, those scoundrels let [inaudible]Inyenzi-Inkotanyi go out from the C.N.D. building without escorting them as such was their duty. And it was led by that Inyenzi-Inkotanyi known by everybody here in Kigali, Karake Karenzi. And they tired at the population that was protesting because of their people who had been killed by those Inyenzi-Inkotanyi who were in the C.N.D. building. On that occasion, some people were wounded and others killed.

Let us also remind you about the Inyenzi-Inkotanyi who would enter and leave the C.N.D. compound as it pleased them, and who eventually exceeded the number of 600. Those so-called Belgian soldiers would pretend to be sleeping, snoring like hippopotamuses in the river. Buses would go to Mulindi empty and would come back loaded with R.P.F. soldiers.

On 26 January 1994 at 04:30 P.M., on Gikondo road, one of those scoundrels acted as a traffic police officer. He treated some drivers more harshly. Among them was the daughter of Colonel Serubuga, Brigitte. Her vehicle was even damaged.

Those bandits did not stop there. In fact, on the night of 30 to 31 January 1994, they attacked one Niyotwizeye Edouard who lives in Gikondo, and robbed him of an amount of 4,900 RWF and his identification papers.

Also, in the evening of 30 January 1994, they surrounded Kiyovu area and attacked the house of Jean-Bosco Barayagwiza, broke everything, in the house, threw stones and scared the kids who were in the house. They did the same thing to the owner of the house of course.

When they reached the road, they attacked Colonel Bagosora and did not spare his visitors.

The last straw is the act committed by those bandits on the 6 April 1994, when they assassinated the President of the Republic, Major General Juvénal Habyarimana, from the positions they had installed in Masaka.

After the assassination of the Head of State, the Inyenzi-Inkotanyi reopened the hostilities. Those scoundrels would transport them in Unamir vehicles, supply them with food and help them during the fighting.

To crown that, when the Belgian government recalled their scoundrels, they gave them the mission of killing people, like our high Army commanders and of destroying property in Rwanda, especially R.T.L.M., the voice of the people.

That was not all They invaded the Kanombe airport offices, breaking everything, tearing up files. They attacked the French Lycée of Rugunga and broke everything there. They damaged the vehicles that the French had left behind and distributed the vehicles’ parts to youngsters who were passing by or sold them at derisory prices. They did so in order to spoil the relations between the French and the Rwandans. So, when the French come back and find their equipment damaged, they would say: “We left our equipment here in Rwanda and now look at what the Rwandans did to us.” So, the Inyenzi-Inkotanyi and the Belgians did this in order to spoil the good relations existing between the Rwandans and the French, However, we have found them out since a long time. They will not be able to put us in trouble. Whenever the French come back, we will reveal the whole truth to them, because we have even declared it immediately after they committed those acts.

So, those are the acts committed by those white Belgians and deplored both by the Rwandans and the international community.

Because of those acts, we all Rwandans have seen enough of those Belgians.

Those scoundrels are wandering. We wish them a good trip. They should know that Rwanda is an independent and sovereign country. The Rwandans will never forget that those bandits killed their President, whom they loved very much.

Those white Belgians acted savagely. We should have them pay for all the damage they caused. Those guerilla fighters who went yesterday and today [inaudible] …The [inaudible] of the Rwandans.

No respectable Rwandan is feeling guilty for that action because guerilla fighters are killers. Let them leave like wolves. That is what they deserve. We do think even that it is not the only thing they deserved because we think that it is like breeding stray dogs. Let them go, in shame. They did not seize our country as such was the dream they shared with the Inyenzi-Inkotanyi. That is the program I had prepared for you. That it is what I wanted to tell you about the disgraceful acts the Belgians committed in our country. And their single objective was to seize power from the Hutus, the mass majority and hand it over to the minority [inaudible] the Inyenzi-Inkotanyi whom we already know and to their followers.

So, let us assist our armed forces and fight those enemies of peace. Let them go to their country. We do not longer need them, since we have discovered them.

Speaker: Frodouald KARAMIRA, M.D.R. Vice President

We went around almost everywhere. We saw that security was prevailing. It is true that sounds of gunfire can be heard here and there, but Kimihurura is the only place where we can say that fighting are taking place, where the R.P.F. troops are positioned. Fighting is taking place there, but not in the whole town as some people say.

We would also like to ask the Rwandans and the members of our party to assist the national armed forces. They must know how to help each other, especially here in town, in their districts, to ensure their own security.

There have been many problems. There has been much anger, which caused the death of many people. However, time has now come for people living in the same area to work together and search for anybody who [inaudible] would be hiding amidst them. [inaudible]

That is our wish for the Rwandans these days, that they work together. Especially in the evening, they should look in water conduits, gutters, banana plantations, bushes and search. We know that some left Kimihurura. There might be a moment when they need to go in houses to look for food. So, they must be searched for. The existing roadblocks must try to identify those who leave the area and those who enter it.

Let me tell all the Rwandans that in town we are doing well this morning.

I would also ask the Rwandans to have a good understanding …Especially those whom the R.P.F. propaganda concerns. The declarations it is making abroad, saying that they have taken the town are far from the truth. In reality, they are endangering their relatives who are in the eountry. We are interested in building, we want the residents to work together but they are setting the residents one against another. So, the R.P.F. will be held accountable for all the consequences of that bad propaganda.

If there is one of their members here, he should ask them to ensure their security. They should take the initiative and ensure the peace of the residents as we are preaching it now, striving for the population’s peace.

Speaker: Kantano HABIMANA, Journalist for R.T.L.M.

Thank you Mr. Karamira. [Inaudible]

Speaker: Stanislas SIMBIZI, C.D.R. Chairman

I take this opportunity to greet all the Rwandans. I especially greet the residents of this town of Kigali and our armed forces who continue to prove themselves courageous. (Inaudible.) To reinforce what Karamira said, I would like to tell the Rwandans that this town is in the hands of its owners, the country is in the hands of its owners as R.T.L.M. likes to say it: “the town belongs to its owners.”

So, the town is under the control of the armed forces assisted by the population. The Inkotanyi who had infiltrated here and there were fired at yesterday and even this morning. We know that they are hiding in the marshes, and the population catches those who try to come out. You yourself can guess what treatment they give them.

No Rwandan soldier is chased by the population. So, the R.P.F. is deluding itself when it declares that the Rwandan soldiers are fleeing, that the town is about to be taken. It just does not know how the population is doing, how the Rwandan army is doing.

We are not worried at all. We know that those provocative acts launched by the R.P.F., after killing the Head of State …I would like to inform the R.P.F. that its fate is sealed because in 1959, things started the same way. Their relatives started causing troubles but that did not do them any good. They should also know that what they launched now, the massacres, the attacks …will never do them any good because the mass majority will remain vigilant with the assistance of the Rwandan Armed Forces.

Speaker: Kantano HABIMANA

Thank you Mr. Simbizi. You are also one of the members of the C.D.R. national committee. I would ask you the contribution given by the C.D.R. in [inaudible]

Speaker: Stanislas SIMBIZI

Thank you Kantano. This is an interesting question. People thought that since the C.D.R. does not participate in the government, it will feel abandoned and remain passive since the President of the Republic was not a member of the C.D.R. However, when we saw the misfortune that befell the country, the C.D.R. members did not wait to be told, they rose up together with all the Rwandans, worked together, supported the army and tracked the enemy. This is rather understandable because if the other Rwandans and the armed forces are fighting for the Republic, as such is the C.D.R.’s motto …It is understandable that all that has been done meets the C.D.R.’s objective which is to support the Republic and to fight the enemy wherever he would be coming from with the objective of bringing back the Rwandans under the feudal regime and the UNAR’s oppression. So, the C.D.R.’s contribution has been to rejoice at the fact that the Rwandans are united and it is working with them to defeat the enemy.

Speaker: Kantano HABIMANA (?)

Thank you. Let me now put a question to Karamira Froduald before Valérie asks hers. I would like to ask Karamira who belongs to the M.D.R. political party, which was often referred to as the renewed M.D.R. Parmehutu …I would like him to compare the war we are fighting against the Inkotanyi with the war between Parmehutu members and UNAR’s members.

Speaker: Frodouald Karamira

This is a difficult and long question. The main common point between that war of UNAR’s members and this Inkotanyi war is the telling of lies to the population. To lie that you control the town while you do not. To lie that you control the country while you do not. To lie that the armed forces should join you. This is like what they used to say, claiming that the ethnic triad of the masses was united and backed the UNAR while that was not so.

What we inherited from Parmehutu is the integrity, the truth, and those were the reasons for which the Revolution took place. The rejection of inequality, of the lie, of pretending to be superior or [inaudible], while the residents want the truth. lt is the same thing now except that when the war broke out, most of us thought that it was in connection with the problem of the repatriation of refugees. Is it still the same situation? At the beginning of the war, the Inkotanyi said that they wanted Habyarimana. Now that they have killed him, what are they fighting for? They are fighting for the power they used to have before 1959 and which they think they can re-conquer. The situation is getting more and more clear. What is clear now is that this war revealed their true objective. The Rwandans realized it too. That is why those who thought that the Rwandans or the parties will continue to tear one another …This is no longer possible. They have found out the true aim of the war.

I remember that Tito Rutaremara once said it openly on Radio Rwanda: “Who are the refugees? Are the refugees those who are in Nyacyonga? The refugees we know are those of 1959 and 1973. It is those ones we are fighting for.Who are they? They are their relatives. So, he is waging the war for the benefit of his relatives. In reality that it is where they damaged politics. The lies they have been telling are no longer valid.

In a meeting we convened with the President of the Republic, someone else said: “in reality, the posts we want are for our relatives.” Was there any secret still kept then?

That means that the war as it was in 1959 …Some people wanted to take all the power for themselves, and the masses took it from them. Now, they want to seize power by force as they used to detain it by force. They want to take it from the masses who acquired it according to the truth, to their number and to their fight against inequalities and for the coming of the truth among the masses. That is why those people dislike the elections and the Republic. Somebody who accepts the elections of the population, because the people express themselves through elections…Somebody who accepts the Republic that promoted equality and founded schools to educate people as such was the Parmehutu’s program which developed the country. Look at this Kigali. Look at how we built the town thanks to our poverty eradication program. It is thanks to our program against criminality, which we still support. Those who are against that program are those who rejected it in 1959.

Speaker: Kantano HABIMANA (?)

So, that means [inaudible]

Speaker: Frodouald KARAMIRA

It is the same thing in reality because when it started, we did not realize it but now you see that the population has found out the truth and the two situations are now getting similar.

Speaker: Kantano HABIMANA

Back in 1959, in any case, if we say it in ethnic terms, the mass majority that won consisted of Hutus. So, do the Hutus hope to win this war that started in 1990 and is still going on?

Speaker: Frodouald KARAMIRA

You should rather ask me this: “Do the Tutsis hope to win it?” Because for the Hutus, I told you that they won because they fought for democracy. Do those who reject democracy hope to strangle it forever? You see that we are gradually losing some prominent Hutus. Do they hope that all of them will die so that they can strangle democracy? Those are the ones who have a problem. They should know that all the residents agreed with the return of the refugees, since that was the problem. They should be settled and live with the other residents. That problem was solved.

Still, I think that saying that they will govern is impossible even if they take Kigali. We fought the ignorance of the population with the Parmehutu’s program. The population is now educated. Nobody will take power from them and govern them by force. That will never work since that person would intend to bring back the former yoke. So, the question should rather be: “will they win?”

Speaker: Kantano HABIMANA

Stany, what is your opinion on this?

Speaker: Stanislas SIMBIZI

I have told you that what happened in 1959, they thought that they would win because they had killed some politicians then reputed to be honest, thinking that the survivors would become afraid and let them rule. You saw that now, they started the same way. They killed anybody who tried to be outspoken and who had the support of the population. That is what happened to Gapyisi, Rwambuka, Gatabazi and to Bucyana, the President of our party. Now you see that it is the turn of the President of the Republic. But so far, you can see that not any Rwandan accepted to kneel down before the Inkotanyi. We rather understood better the objectives of the Inkotanyi, we realized better that there was no difference between the Inkotanyi and the UNAR. Their Rukebas joined them. We who remain in the country, we will continue to hold on to it we will not give it up The R.P.F. is wasting its time, because it will never be strong enough to defeat us.

Speaker: Valérie BEMERIKI

[Inaudible] my question. You are saying that [inaudible] Now, we can see that it does not want to work with other Rwandans and to keep quiet. [Inaudible] What will be the outcome of all this according to you?

Speaker: Stanislas SIMBIZI

Yes, Valérie. It will not take me long to answer your question. Let me remind you that at the time of their last attaeks in 1967, nobody told the Inyenzito stop their attacks. They realized that they were wasting their time and gave up. Today also, if they realize it, if they just do not want to cause people’s death, if they do not want to continue to shed the blood of the masses, they will stop. Maybe not for good, but they will wait for the Rwandans to forget and to give them a passage through which to infiltrate. But now that everything is discovered, I would not give them any hope. It was possible at the beginning when the Rwandans had not yet found out their real aims. Now, it is too late. They should wait for the Rwandans to forget once again.

Speaker: Valérie BEMERIKI

(inaudible)

Speaker: Frodouald KARAMIRA

For me, the problem is …especially as far as the R.P.F. is concerned …If at least they were seeking peace for their people, it would be understandable. You know that the UNAR also was not in good terms with the RADER. The RADER’s political ideas were different from the UNAR’s. The UNAR members wanted to keep the power by force. They would not even take the wishes of their Tutsi relatives into account. We are faced with the same situation now. That war was prepared for a long time and now their propaganda is setting the population at odds with one against another. They know they are few. Are they not causing their own death? Now in reality, the objective of those people is to exterminate their relatives by mounting the tension amidst the residents who did not react on the occasion of the death of Bucyana, of Gapyisi and now it is the turn of the President of the Republic. Now you can see where all this led us. Rather than adopting a propaganda which is causing the war, they should have at least understood and given a break to the population and stopped this war. That propaganda that causes it …You heard it and they also heard of what is going on in Bugesera. Most of those who are dying are their relatives. You heard about Kibuye. There, we are also trying to calm the population. We are calming the population. We are doing the job they were supposed to do. As usually, we are being more humane than they. So, do not you think that one day they will decide to give up by themselves since they are having their children killed?

And the ones who are being killed at the battlefield are their children too. Why? What are they dying for? Do those who send them to the battlefield think that they will win? In reality, they are causing their own defeat.

Speaker: Valérie BEMERIKI

I would like to ask you one more question. We know that the R.P.F. provoked our country’s army. On the evening of 7 April, they provoked them and fired at them. They did so a few months after the signing of the peace agreements. I would like to ask you the importance your party attaches to those peace agreements. I mean those agreements signed in Arusha on 4 August 1993. How important do you think those agreements are? Do you think that they should be dissolved and other agreements negotiated? What are your parties’ points of view? Or as politicians whose opinion is important for our country, what importance do you attach to those agreements?

Speaker: Frodouald Karamira

Those agreements …All the agreements that exist should be implemented in a way that satisfies the population. As you know, the existing problem is that bringing peace to the population is the government’s program. Bringing peace to the population was based on those agreements, agreements that require from the government to keep on negotiating with the R.P.F. for the residents to get peace, for agreements to be implemented before those six weeks we agreed upon with the U.N. Security Council. So, this is a program. As for this program, we think that it should not be canceled because we are at war …It is not for the Rwandans to impede the peace of Rwanda. But as it appears, the R.P.F.’s attitude is making things difficult for us.

It is understandable that …What we require from them is to have these agreements implemented as soon as possible. If they do not listen to this, especially if they do not listen to this advice that came from the residents all over Rwanda, they will have many people exterminated and will be seeking peace for dead people. So, this would be pointless.

As for the party M.D.R., we wish peace for all the Rwandans. We wish the war could end. Such has always been our wish. However, the one who does not want to put an end to it, and that is what the UNAR did, is losing. He is losing property and people. Because when you look at those agreements, they gave to the R.P.F. more than what it would have got from elections. For the sake of people’s peace. And now, it wants even more than what it had been given when we consider how the war was launched and how it is conducted. We hope that they will understand and display common sense and protect their relatives and ensure peace in Rwanda.

Speaker: Valérie BEMERIKI

What is the C.D.R.’s point of view on this issue?

Speaker: Stanislas SIMBIZI

Valérie, I think that it is not the first time you hear about the opinion of the C.D.R. on those agreements. It has always said that there were incorrect things that should be corrected. But because it was not only considering C.D.R.’s interests, but also the whole country’s interests, the C.D.R. felt that it could not impede those agreements if they were to bring peace. It rather asked all those who signed those agreements to do their best to have them implemented.

However, for the R.P.F., even if it does not admit it, it has never accepted those agreements. And the C.D.R. has always proved that the R.P.F. did not accept them. It is the R.P.F. that made the implementation of those agreements impossible. It even said that the C.D.R. should not participate in the Parliament while that was not consistent with those agreements. The situation became deadlocked and the R.P.F. started to kill. It started by killing people and concluded with killing the President of the Republic. And that was not even a final conclusion because it continues with its killings. You understand that the R.P.F. has never accepted the peace agreements and we are not even sure if it will ever accept them. If it does not accept them now, it will never accept them because it wanted to have all the power but that did not happen. So, I personally think, it is not the point of view of C.D.R., I think that…

End of Tape.